Young Lawyers Get Raise, Still Make Jack Shit

If what you aspire to is to get paid I do not understand why you simply did not get a job at an investment bank. Although they will also work you like a dog the difference is that by the time you make Vice President you will be making 3 to 4 times what a junior partner at a law firm makes. So while you still will not have the time to enjoy your place in the Hamptons at least you will be able to own it in full.

Yeh, it’s around 80 hrs give or take a few. Depends on deal flow. So, if you take $250K divided by 80 hrs/week, it comes to around $60/hour. But that is not the point. The point is:

1) The work is exciting. Analysts and Associates are given a pretty high level of responsibility. Anybody who does not enjoy the work or who does not have the energy level for it, shouldn’t be doing it; and

2) The wages go up radically over time. You have to put in the apprenticeship before you get the keys to the Ferrari. This is the price of membership in a very exclusive club - one that makes you pretty well off at a relatively young age.

Hey “fuck” and “seconded” why don’t you follow your own advice and “Get a life ...” This website is serious so given that you don’t seem to like it why are you two “chimps” wasting your time here.

what are numbers are people seeing for sales & trading at the associate and vp levels)?

i know that mba class of 2003 made between 150 and 210 all-in during 2004.  i’m curious where that curve extends over the next 5 years....

For BankerGuy, a 10th year lawyer is making nowhere near 800K, unless they make partner at a very large law firm like Skadden.  And the first years who will be making 140K will no longer be getting 30-40K bonuses.  The point of the pay raise is to cut the huge bonuses because law firms are not investment banks and should not operate like them.

The real point is that lawyers will work to bill (at those large law firms) 2200-2500 hours per year - weekends and long nights - and will never ever have the potential to grab a 10 million dollar bonus like high level bankers.  Some mega-partners at the huge firms may make well into the millions but that level is near impossible for most lawyers to achieve and requires just as much of a sacrifice as being a banker, but without the rewards.  And you have to be a lawyer - ugh.  Like I said, I’m sure that banking is miserable too, but it seems to me to be somewhat more interesting than the law.

Big Law Total Comp - the first 10 years:

1st Year Associate: 145,000 +35K bonus*
2nd Year Associate: 155,000 +40K bonus
3rd Year Associate: 170,000 +45K bonus
4th Year Associate: 190,000 +50K bonus
5th Year Associate: 210,000 +55K bonus
6th Year Associate: 230,000 +60K bonus
7th Year Associate: 245,000 +65K bonus
8th Year Associate: 260,000 +70K bonus
1st Year Partner: around 400-500K (?)**
2nd Year Partner: around 450-600K (?)

Associate salaries are pretty much identical for all top-20 firms. Partner compensation depends very heavily on the profitability of the firm.

*) Boni are at 2005 levels and most associates get the full bonus
**) The stated levels of compensation are speculative figures for take-home with buy-in deducations already reflected. Partnership compensation rises steeply. A good partner at a good firm probably makes around a $1m after a few years, big guys maybe $3m. Very few partners in NYC make more than $4m.

all the average comp estimates you guys have mentioned for the banking & S&T;side are too low at least in this environment

Lawyers may be assholes, but bankers are fucking dickheads.  I’m a young lawyer at one of the top ten, and while we’re aggressive, we’re humans.  The bankers I meet are fucking asshole scum.  I’d rather work for my money in my environment than be one of those overgrown frat-twats.

Actually, long term in law is comparable, although short term may be worse than banking. Partners in NY city law firms make close to one million, while bankers (after 8 years) will make less. The problem is in profit sharing at firms as opposed to banks. The bottom line for revenue is more or less the same.

All in all, if you consider that lawyers DO work less than bankers, albeit still like dogs, the total compensation throughout is comparable.

REALISTICALLY, what kind of hours does an IB analyst and associate work to earn that pay?  Is it minimum 80 hrs/wk?  More? 

What’s the hourly wage like?

If seeing the numbers is going to make you green, why do you even come to a web site like UTC.

We enjoy discussing the numbers the way some people enjoy discussing batting averages.

Seconded.  Don’t you have anything better to talk about than how much an overworked chimp who crunches numbers and shakes hands makes in a year?  Get a life…

I second that.  I’m a lawyer.  Being a lawyer sucks.  I assume being an investment banker sucks also, but if your job has to suck, make the money and then quit and do something that doesn’t suck - you’ll make enough dough if you’re careful with it(and if you can avoid the Patrick Bateman-esque golden handcuffs).

Lawyers will work like dogs for their entire lives and never make enough money for it to be worth it.

OK, I see the point.  But here’s the question I have for all of you:

First year associates at i-banks made about $200-250K last year.  This is after 2yrs as an analyst and 2 years of b-school (for the most part).  Looks like first-year associates at law firms are now going to make $145K + 30-40K bonus this year, for total comp of around $175K-185K.  This is 3 years after undergrad.  Presumably, in their 2nd year, they get another 10-15% bump in total comp, putting them at about $193-213K.  Doesn’t seem like that big of a disparity with their equivalent banking colleagues (certainly not the junior levels).

Thoughts?

Banking Total Comp Mid Point - the first 10 years:

1st Year Analyst: 50,000
2nd Year Analyst: 85,000
1st Year Associate: 190,000
2nd Year Associate: 250,000
3rd Year Associate: 325,000
4th Year Associate: 350,000
1st Year VP: 450,000
2nd Year VP: 500,000
3rd Year VP: 650,000
4th Year VP: 800,000

What do the first 10 years for a lawyer look like?

Your comp for analysts look really low.  My experience is as follows:

1st year analyst: $90K (55K base +10K signing +25K bonus)

2nd year analyst:  $115K (65K base +50K bonus)

3rd year analyst: $150K (75K base +75K bonus)

Associate comp looks more or less right, though last year it was much higher (avg for 1st year associate was $210K)

A first year analyst only makes $55k a year as a base salary? that sucks balls.

At least their earning potential is greater as times passes by.

Base salaries are meaningless for bankers though.  Most of your comp comes from your bonus.  For example, at the MD level, your base is around $175K-$225K but your bonus is generally around $750-1mm+ (representing about 80-90% of your total annual income).  Same goes generally for analysts.  Yes its true that accountants, consultants, and other corporate-type college graduate jobs pay around $50-60K/year, but their bonus levels typically top out at around $5-10K, putting total annual comp around $55-70K.  For a first year analyst, you generally get $90K all in, and the gap widens each succeeding year.

the point is that everybody can’t be IBankers and everyone can’t be lawyers.  and they involve different skill sets. so if a person who is good at “lawyering” type skills goes into IBanking, there is a chance they wont make anything because they wont go up the ladder.  all this talk of comp salaries is dumb.

Who the fuck are you people?

Ha, love this post.  While I’m still a law student I am also an in house legal analyst working on securities offerings at one of the top investment banks.... talk about the worst of both worlds